And so, I’m imagining a white person in a suit in Washington D.C. … That person, the sort of person you and I meet sometimes at a conference. I don’t think that this guy now is living that life. The social history of African Americans since the civil rights movement. And so, all these people stand up and talk about, this solipsistic talk about, “Oh how patriotical this all is, and how good I’m sure it made that person to say that,” whoever it was, -- audience, I do not know even off stage here who Glenn is talking about -- and the question is, okay, let’s suppose, and I think that it’s rather weak to say that all of black problems trace to slavery, but -- which is what the implication here is -- but why? “You people,” a person might say, not a kind person, “are enjoying the fruits of freedom and equal citizenship, at least, not perfectly so, but very substantially so, and yet,” and yet, OK, Hannah-Jones dismisses, she says at one point in her article she says, and this really blew my top, she says, “Yes, there are these statistics and there are these disparities and they are as predictable as anything given the horrific character of slavery.” Really? Neither do they believe that the Asians are overrunning all of these hard-to-get-into schools and getting such high scores on the exam, and so forth, because of some kind of privilege. And that, no matter how much you justify it, no matter how innocent this guy is, it gets us nowhere fast. Play entire video Play this clip. You have to have your arms spread, and everybody backs up, and he’s got this baleful expression on his face and he plops down into that seat, and then he just sits. MCWHORTER: Oh, he would start yelling at you. He came to my consciousness very gradually. There must be some larger point, and the only logical point could be, we are supposed to look at America being founded in slavery and therefore evaluate black people differently than we would evaluate other people. That’s what it is.  He has since remarried. There’s what’s said in polite society, and we all know what is polite to say, and so we genuflect, and we obey. I guess everybody knows that. The overrepresentation amongst the impoverished, the fractured families, the huge test score gaps, the... You could go down the list, one after another after another, social indicator of inequality, the so-called “wealth gap” and so forth and so on. “Why now?” Is a question that I would like to ask. In other words, just complex. MCWHORTER: And yeah, the thing is, the answer for many of these people would be, “Yes!” I think there are an awful lot of smart, accomplished black people, for example, who really do want it to be that way, that there’s supposed to be a sense that everybody kowtows to them when it comes to moral issues, that anything that goes wrong for them has to be understood partly as a result of 1619, et cetera. Or, one other example is, desegregation happens in the late ’60s, and, talk about bussing, a lot of black kids wind up in white schools, where, because white people are still kind of backwards, a lot of white people didn’t really want them there. Jussie Smollett? One is the 84-minute bloggingheads conversation between Brown University professor Glenn Loury and Columbia University professor John McWhorter. Now, I’m almost finished, but you think very quickly. They could not earn the standing of equal citizenship, even by being willing to surrender their lives on the battlefield. If you want to know pretty much all [â¦] MCWHORTER: Yeah, just take a look at the old black business districts in the early twentieth century and why those go away. By the way, you’re saying that he feels entitled? But he’s got to get on there and hang from it like he’s in a gym, and slowly... What he’s saying, and I’m sure that none of this was planned, was, “Y’all gotta watch out for me.” And some of it is masculinity, he’s making himself bigger like he’s some kind of bird doing some sort of courtship, and to be honest I’ve seen a lot of black guys who get into the subway seat like that. And I’ll tell you something else they know.  He was elected president of the Eastern Economics Association in 2013. The fruit of the civil rights movement and African American struggling. He’s angry. Chronicling the Race (Glenn Loury & John McWhorter) BLM and the looming threat of political violence ... Can social justice movements redefine what counts as âknowledgeâ? That’s the sort of thing that we’re facing, yeah. MCWHORTER: They’ve been asking me that too, and I almost haven’t wanted to say anything because one, I don’t want to get repetitious, and two, I don’t want to be mean about the work that goes into a project like that. Of course, African slaves had been coming to the so-called New World, Caribbean, and South America for years, but 1619, before the Mayflower, some 20-odd enslaved persons landed in Virginia and we inaugurate the long, brutal era of chattel slavery in the United States. They think they know more history than some of the rest of us, but their vision of how black history went is, as if only for us, history is this kind of simplistic, fourth-grade-level diorama, when, really, we’re all grown-ups, and we’re supposed to realize that stuff is complicated, and it’s complicated in a way that simply doesn’t lend itself to anything as tempting, as narcotic, as ambrosial as the notion that America is all slavery. He’s probably lived in New York his whole fucking life. I mean, really?  In 1979 he moved to teach at the University of Michigan where we continued to be an assistant professor until being promoted to a Professor of Economics from 1980-1982. In 2005, Loury left Boston University for Brown University, where he was named a professor in the Economics Department, and a research associate of the Population Studies and Training Center. LOURY: Including this gentleman’s anger and alienation and sullenness. Glenn Loury and John McWhorter on McCain and Obama at the Saddleback Civil Forum. Yours is the last word. This is back to Thomas Aquinas. The idea is we’ve suffered. But the other thing I want to say is, if I were Irish, I would resent having the American story centered on slavery. Are they crazy? But that’s the idea. So I’m disappointed because I feel like it’s low-rent thinking, disguised as higher wisdom. I don’t think so. …, , clearly doesn’t speak English, who’s standing there with all her bags. It’s not that there’s this one weird person I saw on the train one day last week. I think that he has picked up a lot of demeanor, the way any human being picks up demeanor, from the peers closest to him, and I think a lot of his attitude is outdated in the Bed-Stuy context that he probably grew up in. You see, if we could, more or less articulately, more or less intelligently critique it as black guys, then that means that the white guys, and a few girls, would not be racist for seeing the inadequacies of The 1619 Project. Slavery is a commonplace in human history. In 1982, at the age of 33, he became the first black tenured professor of economics in the history of Harvard University. Before going to college he fathered two children, and supported them with a job in a printing plant. We knew he was lying all along, we didn’t believe that!” (laughter) “Nobody with any sense believed that nigga.” And there’s a lot of things like that, John. She’s got a kid. , In June 2020, Loury published a rebuttal to a letter Brown University president Christina Paxson sent to students and alumni in response to the killing of George Floyd by a policeman. They know that they have a culture that values this kind of achievement. What about the Jews? They’ve served, and yet, they have men and women being denied. Thomas Aquinas is a very tough thing to teach, as brilliant as he was. LOURY: Yeah, except, and I’ve been pushing this for a while, I think they’re bluffing. So it’s that kind of reasoning and the problem is, that’s not the most transparent point. contributions by John McWhorter and Glenn C. Loury Templeton Press, 2017 Paper : 978-1-59947-518-9 eISBN : 978-1-59947-519-6 Black civil rights leaders have long supported ethnic identity politics and prioritized the integration of political institutions, and seldom has that strategy been questioned. I think in response, I might try to distinguish between what The 1619 Project, that the New York Times, where Dean Baquet is the senior editor, what it says about the country, what it says about the United States, and distinguish between that and what it says about the conditions of African Americans, what you’re calling the disparities. You’re part of why people like Glenn and me have trouble with the ideology in society.” I don’t think it’s his fault, but we elite people, in promulgating narratives like this one that you and I don’t like, we end up putting into the water the sort of thing that teaches people like him that it’s un-black to really try, that to be black is to not be subject to the rules that everybody else is. I suppose, again, there’s enough blame to go around, and yes, racism and exclusion will have to be a part of the story, but that they’re the whole story? The ingenuity of the American mindset is what has made Ameri... As Englishmen had become Americans, liberty and equality shi... Robert Cherry and Phil Magness join Peter W. Wood to discuss... . American democracy, in all of its glory, and with all of its faults and flaws, is best understood with a narrative that puts slavery at the center of it? But when you forget what individual people are like, what you’re doing is singing, and that’s different from analysis. …, MCWHORTER: Well, I just want to bolster something you were saying to make it clear to the audience. Conventions. by Adam Serwer. Play entire video Play this clip. They’ve been taught that thinking of black people as talented monkeys is a form of higher wisdom, but I think that view is more on the ropes now than it was even 10 years ago. They just will wink at you. People know that they’re working hard. Let’s stop your bullshit.” That is definitely a crowd, and I think that it’s healthy, but there’s a fine line between that crowd, and people who believe, really, that there is something wrong with black people and are looking for a reason to voice actual, bonafide racism. Glenn Loury hosts The Glenn Show on Bloggingheads.tv, ... heâs been having some extraordinarily candid and clarifying conversations about race and racism with the linguist John McWhorter, from Columbia, and I highly recommend you check out that podcast. Kids getting killed in St. Louis, that’s the reason, in the last few weeks, a lot of kids under 12 years old have gotten shot to death on the streets of St. Louis. Glenn Loury and John McWhorter This transcript is reproduced from a discussion between Professors Glenn Loury (Professor of Economics, Brown University) and John McWhorter (Professor of English and Comparative Literature, Columbia University) on "The Glenn Show." Glenn Loury And John McWhorter On West And Obama. ", In 1987, Loury's career continued its ascent when he was selected to be the next Undersecretary of Education, a position which would have made him the second-highest-ranking black person in the Reagan administration. Anybody who conducts himself that way probably wouldn’t last delivering for FreshDirect. This is medieval thought, especially in that, if you question any of it, outside of certain circles, you are considered not fit for society. The Viruses | Glenn Loury & John McWhorter [The Glenn Show] (Bloggingheads.tv â June 10, 2020): Letâs begin with the most recent discussion between Glenn Loury and John McWhorter, professors at Brown University and Columbia University respectively, in which they talk about academeâs reaction to the BLM movement and issues at the core of policing and its backlash, â¦ You’re not going to ask a black guy, “Do you feel like you’re owed a pass because of black people’s history and slavery and Jim Crow?” Most people would say no. He goes to his kid’s school, the teachers and the principals don’t treat him like the other parents, they presume that he’s stupid and doesn’t have anything to offer, et cetera. , After being awarded his Ph.D., Loury became a assistant professor of economics at Northwestern University. Slavery is a universal of human experience. John and Glenn â¦ And, I don’t think... You take the issue of homicide and race, so-called black-on-black crime. I would say no, it was more than that. Have you seen the -- have you seen the, yeah? Viewed from the position of the African American, of the enslaved person, of the freedman, of the disenfranchised in the Jim Crow South of the hopeful, hopeful, ever-hopeful civil rights movement, that the promise already owed of American freedom would finally be honored in the case of African Americans,” all this kind of stuff. The ideas that we have, and you and I have argued about whether he’s a racist, but he certainly is not polite about however he feels about people who are not white, and certainly there is Charlottesville and what he said about that, there’s a rise in the open expression of statements that one would call at least not exactly graceful about race. Dean Baquet, or whoever it is, is standing behind a podium and talking about how this lesson must be taught to America, we must think about this, and nobody says why. There’s a kind of a poetry in it, but it’s weak science, and often it’s just weak logic, and so the idea that whites are used to being in control, which ones? LOURY: Okay, so here’s a rebuttal, or, I’m going to try, okay? Frankly, with the Medievals, they couldn’t help it, intellectual history had only gotten so far, but the idea here is, ignore what people are calling complexity, ignore all these cross-currents that people are distracting you with, and instead, think of this entire country, this entire experiment, everything that’s happened over these 400 years, all of it can be summed up in one word: slavery. Loury currently hosts The Glenn Show on Bloggingheads.tv. They owe their freedom and prosperity to your suffering? That’s not a generalization, that’s just those particular kids,” and yet we’re supposed to look at the white woman in the supermarket and think she’s part of this general thing called whiteness, and only white people are we allowed to talk about that way, and somehow that’s allowed. Now, why doesn’t he know that pecking order? You know, they have trained themselves to not think about the contradictory evidence. They are correct that that’s neither fair nor coherent, and if what it takes is two black guys to say, “You know what, you’re not crazy,” then I dare anybody to say that we don’t qualify as black, in having the feelings that we do. And you expect to do politics with them? If you look him up and down, you’re inviting a conflict. But he’s got to get on there and hang from it like he’s in a gym, and slowly... What he’s saying, and I’m sure that none of this was planned, was, “Y’all gotta watch out for me.” And some of it is masculinity, he’s making himself bigger like he’s some kind of bird doing some sort of courtship, and to be honest I’ve seen a lot of black guys who get into the subway seat like that.
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